From Solo to Stroller: Single Motherhood at 49

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I'm Dal, The Happiologist and I am doing this on purpose.

Hi everyone.

It's your pal Dal.

Thanks for joining my podcast today on the topic of fertility and the

pressures around fertility as we age.

And does marriage have to be the only route to motherhood, especially looking at

it from a cultural lens as an Asian woman?

And it's a really important topic to shed light on, especially in today's society.

And so many people feel socially and culturally restricted to sharing

their story, but, you know, we really need to remove the taboo.

And I want to particularly put the lens of being an Asian woman doing this, because

the stigma attached is absolutely huge.

And what my guest did today was not only brave and courageous, but I wish I had

inspiring people like her sharing their story around me back then, you know, my

life may possibly have been different.

So I'm honored to introduce our very special guest, Charny Sanghera.

Charny has been a lawyer spanning the 25 years of her career.

She was a partner at a leading global law firm and is now a legal

consultant and outside of work.

Charny is now mum to a beautiful five month old baby boy.

Charny is a single mum in London, and I'm so pleased that Charny's kindly

agreed to carve out time for us to share her inspiring story with us around her

fascinating journey into motherhood.

So huge welcome, Charny.

Good morning.

Again, just want to say it's a massive honour for me that you

are joining the podcast today, not least because you're single handedly

raising your beautiful son and I know just to get to your laptop today has

been a massive struggle in itself.

But you know, also because you so kindly and readily agreed to share your inspiring

story with everyone about your journey to motherhood through a sperm donor.

And, you know, without people like you sharing and inspiring us, we

wouldn't be able to find courage, you know, and I'm actually hitting

my fifties and I don't have children.

And there are, like me, you know, millions of ambitious, single,

educated, independent women out there.

You know, that have quite rightly pursued a successful career.

You know, not given in to societal pressure to marry for the sake of it.

You know, just to keep other people happy.

And, you know, using marriage as a route to have a child.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that we don't want children.

There are times, and I'm the first to admit this, that, you

know, I felt a bit unfulfilled.

But never actually thought about going down the route that you've taken.

And I believe that, you know, the courage and determination of amazing people

like you that had donors, you know, really paved the way for a more open

minded and accepting society, you know, where individuals are free to choose

their path to happiness and fulfillment.

So I think there's some, we found some startling figures to, to, to kick us

off on this, but the number of women from Indian backgrounds that used

sperm or egg donation to start a family who are from the UK is really low.

that access IVF or donor treatment in the UK in contrast to a whopping 43

and a half thousand white patients.

And that's a huge contrast.

So, so I'm really keen and I'm sure everybody else is, you know, to kick in.

Can you tell me a little bit about your personal journey around being a mum?

You know, when did you start thinking about being a mum and what led

you to wanting to do this alone?

I've actually always wanted to be a mum.

I think from probably the age dots, I think growing up I always envisaged that

I'd be happily married and, you know, have three children by the age of 30.

That vast sort of went out of the window since I went to university.

And I think it's just been like so many people.

That is also something that you really want to do and we become so focused on

our own careers that you just expect it.

things to fall into place.

You think you're going to meet the man of your dreams or the partner of your dreams

that it's all going to just follow and it will naturally follow that you will then

get married and you'll have children.

But of course that doesn't always happen.

We don't always meet the right person.

And I really became, it wasn't something that was always

at the forefront of my mind.

I think it was just a case of I will meet somebody in due course

and then the family will follow.

And it just didn't happen that way.

And, but the desire to become a mum never really went away.

The desire to have three children went away.

So but it was something I continued to look at.

And then decided I'd go it alone.

Because why not?

Why should you be restricted to only having children in, in, in the

form of you know, in the institution of marriage or with a partner?

So if you don't have the right partner, it's, what, what's the best thing to

do is it to have a child and be happy or to be in an unhappy relationship

and you know, do it that way.

So I looked into it in my late thirties went to a clinic in London and had a

fertility test, got told that I would.

Had the fertility or the egg reserve of a, of someone in their

early 30s and delayed taking action again which is something I regret.

And so it was only in my 40s, late 40s, that I decided that I would go

back to speak to fertility clinics.

And then realize that actually it's really difficult that your fertility

does actually fall off a cliff, as they say, at the age of around

35, and it becomes a lot harder.

So I explored doing it on my own with the use of a sperm donor.

Wow, that's so inspiring.

And I had a similar situation, actually.

I was considering it in my 30s and, you know, for me, I wanted to travel

around the world, do lots of things, you know, people might say it was a

bit more selfish, but I, I always felt that actually I could come back to it.

And then I remember having the test done in my early 40s.

And they said, look, you can You can go for it, but actually the quality of your

eggs are going to be really poor, and I can remember that mument I was with, with

a friend, and I can remember that mument thinking, I was so shocked, because I, I

just automatically assumed that I could.

So for me, one of the things I learned, actually, that maybe, I don't know

whether complacency had set in, but I guess I just, I just thought I would.

So I, I, I can imagine what it must have been like, like you said, you went

in your thirties and then, you know, going back in your forties and having

that kind of dilemma in your head.

And also the point that you made, which is quite interesting around.

I mean, I think I blame it on the Bollywood films, right?

Because we think that we marry, we marry in our mid twenties.

Right.

And then we have children in our thirties and we all live happily ever

after, you know, and our parents always say to university somebody saying to

me the day, you know, don't talk to boys and, and don't go out with boys.

And then when you leave university, they want you to get married.

And you're like, well you didn't want me to talk to boy s, look at boys.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So that makes it so much more difficult, but yeah, I, I think so many people can

kind of resonate with, with that story.

So, so you clearly thought about, like you said, you know, in your, your thirties,

you're thinking about having children.

And do you feel like a big part of where you took that journey

was a lot to do with your career?

And I guess just wanting to be able to, you know, do more things for yourself?

Or was it, was a lot of it based on actually, I'm going to find somebody soon.

So I'm going to be in a relationship.

It certainly was for me.

Absolutely.

I think the, the, the career just, you know, you leave university, I

went to law school, I started and did my training contract, I qualified.

And then you're almost on this path that's kind of, you know laid out and everyone's

telling you that you need to work hard and you need to do xyz to get promoted.

And so you just naturally follow this career path and you assume that you're

going to meet the, you know, meet someone.

And I guess the family was just never at the forefront of my mind.

It was something I just assumed would happen in time.

So I didn't really think about it too much.

I have to say, I don't think that there is sufficient information

given about fertility to women.

Which is a real problem.

And I think that's, if there's anything that I would like people to take more

note of, is fertility, unfortunately, is not something that can wait.

You know, women are born with all of the eggs the egg reserve they're going

to have, you know, they're born with, I think it's one to one to two million eggs.

By the time they hit 35, that figure was drastically reduced.

And so the chances of getting pregnant from, I think they say

from your mid thirties onwards, are vastly reduced because, of

course, there is then a far fewer.

A smaller egg reserve, but there's also a greater risk of genetic abnormalities

with the eggs, so the quality of the eggs are massively reduced as well.

And so, but I don't think anybody really gives that information.

People don't talk about fertility, I think.

And, which is why I think so many of us just think, Oh, well, I'm almost there.

I'm almost about to be promoted.

You know, I don't want to put that, I don't want to risk that.

By going down and taking a year out to, to, to go and get pregnant.

And I think there are so many factors that come into that because when I was

much younger, I recall going out for a dinner and I remember one of the male

partners turning around and saying at the end of the evening, well, there's

no point recruiting women because they all just want to get married and go off

and have children, which I thought was a really quite an offensive thing to say.

And unfortunately, there is still a lot of people.

There are quite a lot of people out there who have that view.

You know, perhaps you understand that, that they're looking at it from, from

the perspective of their own business that can we really afford to take on

all of these ladies are all going to go off and have children at some point.

You know, that is something, I think that's one of the, the,

the issues that you face and then you're almost fighting it.

You are almost wanting to prove that no, you are not going

to be one of those people.

But I think in, in my case, it really was a case of, I just wasn't aware of

the figures, the facts about fertility.

And ever since I have learned about it, I have, I'm almost on a mission to try

and talk to my younger female friends.

And as a result of that, I think, you know, certainly.

A number of them have gone off and had their, have had their fertility

tests fertility, fertility tested.

A couple of them have become pregnant and some of them have actually decided to, to

follow a similar route to, to, to myself.

So they've gone off and decided to freeze their eggs or decided to, to, to go

ahead and just make use of a sperm donor and, and, and just proceed on their own.

So some are in relationships and are not in relationships.

So I feel that I'm doing my bit, I'm trying to share...

I was going to say, yeah.

And I think you're empowering women, right?

And I think this is what we lack, to your point, I think, especially in the

kind of our culture, it's, it is a very taboo subject it's not something you

speak openly about, but I actually think we do lack people that are empowering

others, and I wish I'd met you a long time ago, because I think, you know,

like I was saying earlier, my life would be very different, because there

is this lack of education piece, and I certainly think there needs to be a lot

more done around that, because it's, you know, there's a lot of people that,

you know, in their 40s they get to that stage and, and realize, actually, my

chances are reduced so dramatically.

And you don't, you don't prepare yourself, right, for that kind of conversation.

You don't realize, actually.

I think it comes as such a shock.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Challenging enough Charny, you know, going through this process, let alone

having to factor in being a a single Asian woman, late 40s, early 50s.

So how did you approach this with your family?

You know, we're talking about cultural barriers, you know, what emotional

support was available to you?

I'm not going to say it was easy.

It was something that I thought about and talked to my friends about

for years before I actually had the conversation with my parents.

So I'm very close to my, to my siblings.

So I'd spoken to my siblings about it.

I'd spoken to my sister in laws about it.

I'd been following lots of Instagram accounts and doing lots of reading.

And Actually, bizarrely, it was one of those subjects that I think my

mum for years had talked about and suggested to me that I freeze my eggs.

But we didn't really have this conversation then about

the use of a sperm donor.

It was actually initiated bizarrely by my mum.

And I think in a roundabout way, but it was because I think that the conversation

I've been speaking very clearly about this in detail with my cousin.

So she had just mentioned it to her mum.

And actually the two mums spoke about it and I think it was,

it really came around that way.

I was completely surprised and taken aback because I think we all know that.

in our culture, our parents generation in particular is very concerned about

what the neighbors think, what their relatives will say about it, and

what spin there's going to be on it.

And I have to be entirely honest, I'm not concerned at all about what people

think because what's there to think about?

It's my, it's my journey, it's my life, and you have to put yourself first.

So I was incredibly surprised when my mum sent me a long detailed email

suggesting that this is something that I ought to, to, to think about.

And you know, I was so relieved.

And as I say, would I have done this without their approval?

Probably.

Because I think it's really important, it's, it's your life, we

only have one shot at it, and it's something that I've always wanted.

So what, as I say, what people, the neighbours say, what some distant

relative has to say about it really isn't something that I concern myself with.

But that having that sense of approval or having the approval from the

go ahead from, from your parents actually made a massive difference

because I wanted their support.

I, I rather could have gone on this journey with them.

having their assistance.

That emotional, as you say, it's the emotional support that you

really need when you're going on a journey like this, and particularly

if you're doing it by yourself.

I mean, even couples go through a really incredibly stressful time

when they're going through IVF.

So to do it on your own without that help, I think can be quite difficult.

But as I say, I was very, very fortunate.

And in fact, my mother has been absolutely amazing.

She's been so supportive.

I actually spend so much more time on the phone to them nowadays than

I have in the last two decades.

So it's wonderful.

Oh, I love it's brought you together, as children often do.

And I think that's a really selfless act on the part of your mum.

And I think you're right.

Absolutely.

A lot of us are too hung up with what does community think?

But actually, you know, as I've grown and matured I found that actually

Our parents have evolved, right?

And the questions and, you know, emotions that you want to share with them,

probably once upon a time we couldn't.

But because they've evolved also, and they're probably more of the

view too, that actually it doesn't matter what X or Y thinks, because

it doesn't affect their lives.

So I think we've got bravery as a generation to start to open up that

dialogue that we probably once upon a time wouldn't have, but actually I do think

we underestimate our parents sometimes, right, and our families around us because

I think having that discussion and being brave about having and courageous

around having that discussion, you know, can have such a huge impact.

So well done you for doing that and, you know, well done to your

parents for being so supportive.

But, you know, during that time when you were thinking about it, did you

have any kind of moments of concern?

You know, for a lot of us, once upon a time, you know, I would

have been then thinking around, can I do this without a man?

And I feel a bit embarrassed saying that, but once upon a time, I did think

that, you know, I come from a traditional set up as do you, parents, siblings.

So that's the only environment I ever kind of knew.

Did you ever have that kind of whole feeling that actually

I need a man to do this?

I went through a phase, I think where that was exactly my mindset, which

was that, well, but surely, you know, children is a product of a relationship.

It's something, you know, a bit, a bit of you, a bit of them.

And, you know, is this something I want to do on my own?

Is it fair on the child?

Is it something I can mentally cope with on my own?

And and I guess there is a part of you that wonders whether you are

being selfish and doing it on your own, but look at the setup nowadays.

There are so many broken families, there are single parent families.

You know, I think if you, as long as you can give that child the support

and be the best parent for them, then I don't think it really matters.

So yes, I mean, I think we.

The issue is that people come and go, relationships come and go.

Do I think that I'm going to be single for the rest of my life?

No, I've never ever thought that.

I'm hoping that one day, you know, I will meet the right person, but I

know that my fertility won't wait.

It's not something that I can, I can't decide.

Unfortunately, you know, we're not men, Mick Jagger, you can

probably still produce children now.

You know, there is, the time for women to do this is finite, unfortunately.

So, I have taken this decision.

I do not regret it for a single moment.

I'm very, very happy.

You know, it's, it's bizarre how how little, little individual can

bring so much joy to your life.

Yeah, and I think that whole, absolutely, I mean, I've seen

you, the little one, and honestly, the relationship you've got,

and he's so, such a happy baby.

And you've got all your friends and family that, you know, so embrace the situation.

So it's absolutely so beautiful to see.

And, you know, as you're talking there, I was thinking about my kind

of idealized kind of version of what life should look like, you know, kind

of married, you know, with kids 2.

4 white picket fence, that kind of thing, dream.

But actually that dream doesn't exist anyway, because obviously we see so many

relationships, you know husband and wife.

I don't even need to mention this.

divorce.

We all know that they're very high.

So actually that whole kind of dream vision that we had once upon a time, and

I blame it on the fairy tale books that we used to read and the sad Bollywood

films, but that, that whole perception of what that kind of dream life looks

like doesn't exist anymore anyway, right.

So, you know...

absolutely.

I think, you know, the, the, that, that sort of the, just the way the families are

constituted nowadays is, is so different.

I mean, you know, whether you're in the same sex relationship or might've

been a one night stand, it might be, you know, you were in a happy, happy

marriage, which is no longer happy.

So, you know, families just aren't.

a standard fit anymore.

So, you know, there is an element of me, you know, that I thought that

perhaps I, it would be unfair to bring a child into the world by myself,

but let's say I've got the support of my family my friends around me.

He is not going without love.

I was going to say, I don't think I've seen a happier child, to be honest so

much love there, which I absolutely love.

So I know a lot of listeners are going to want to hear a bit about the how to.

So can you tell us a little bit about I think it's called

assisted reproductive technology.

So, you know, the, the donation process and how does it work?

So there's lots of things that you need to take into account.

One of the most important factors is also the country.

So in the UK, for example, one of the things you need to take into account

is that donors are no longer anonymous.

So, although you won't know what the identity of the donor is, at

the age of 18, they are now given the name and address of the donor.

So there is that opportunity, you know, there is a possibility that someone

is gonna come knocking on your door if you're the donor at the, the age of 18.

Okay.

I think that actually affected the number of donors in this country significantly

when that when the rules changed.

There are also countries that are a completely anonymous, so I had

treatment initially in the uk.

I had one round in a clinic, at a clinic in London that didn't work out.

And so I did quite a lot of research, but to lots of clinics in Spain and

Greece partly because I'd been told I'd heard lots of good things about them.

I was following various Facebook groups.

Fertility related issues and I decided to then go to a clinic in Athens in Greece.

I'm happy to, to, to share the name.

It's Ark Fertility and the doctor there, it was, was amazing.

I'd heard some great things about him.

And actually out of all the consultations that I'd had, I immediately warned to him.

So the treatment I received out there was It was second to none

far, far better than my experience in the clinic in London, I'd say.

It felt a lot more bespoke.

I was being monitored and my medication was being you know, just, just tweaked.

as necessary.

Whereas it felt very much like, no, here you go, see you in two weeks.

On a conveyor belt type situation.

Very much, yeah.

It really didn't really feel as though they were really listening to and

looking at my personal circumstances.

Well, as I say.

That's just, that's my personal experience.

I'm not going to mention the name of the clinic, but you know, so,

so what you have to consider is, Whether or not I think it wasn't an

important factor in my decision making.

But one of the things that you would probably consider is whether or not

you want your child to be able to find out who the donor is at age 18.

I ended up going to Greece at the time it was totally anonymous.

And so it seemed like the right fit for me.

I just wanted it to be successful.

And what you have to do is you then have to source the sperm.

There are lots of organizations out there from whom you can source it.

The two biggest organizations in Europe, I believe, are the European

Sperm Bank and Cryos in Denmark.

You can also go to the US.

There's some very large, significant companies there.

And what happens is that you can then select the donor from that database.

You are given quite a lot of information about them, things like the most important

things are physical characteristics.

You'll have some basic information about their medical history.

I think they are tested for some general really important medical issues.

And so you have the results of that.

I went through Cryos in Denmark and They have more information.

They have information about their parents and their siblings and their

grandparents medical history as well.

So not not overly detailed, but you can see details like, you know, what

color eyes they have, what color hair they have, because it was anonymous.

I couldn't see any adult photographs, but I was able to see a couple of photographs

of what The donor looked like as a child and then there's, you know, they give

a little bit more information about themselves, well, you know, what their

career is, what their aspirations are, the reason why they chose to become a donor.

It's a difficult.

It is obviously difficult.

It's sort of, you know, you have no idea what this person is like as a human being.

But you know, you, you have, so you have some information

to help you make that decision.

The The sperm is then shipped out to your clinic, so you

don't ever access it yourself.

It doesn't come to you, it goes straight to the clinic.

And, you know, you'll already by then be talking to your clinic about what kind of

route you want to go down, whether it's going to be IVF, if it's going to be IUI.

So there is a a more simple method called IUI, which is I believe where

the sperm is just injected into you.

It's a slightly cheaper form, a way of doing it.

IVF is obviously where your body is stimulated.

So ordinarily a woman would produce one egg each month.

And the going through IVF, obviously that process is you're having stimulants.

With the idea that you would then produce more follicles, more eggs

for collection and to be fertilized.

And of course, the way it works is that once you've had you, you, the

clinic will effectively put the sperm together with the, with the eggs.

And see if they fertilize and then if they get to day three or five, at day five,

they are known as a blastocyst, they'll get graded, and if they are of good enough

quality, you can speak to your doctor about whether you choose to, you know, to

transfer one, two, three embryos back in.

And then you're basically just waiting to see whether or not

that that embryo implants.

And if you're lucky...

That's a nail biting period of time

dreadful, the two week the dreaded two week wait as they refer to it.

That's a long time.

It's a long time.

It's a painfully long time to have to wait.

But I suppose you know, you obviously have a lot more information than

if you're doing it naturally.

So you know exactly when the clock starts ticking.

It's almost as simple as that.

Simple to explain, it really isn't necessarily always simple.

There are so many add ons that clinics will offer you.

There is so many, you know, some people choose to get those

blastocysts genetically tested before they make a decision.

So they might choose, you might end up having to, to freeze the

eggs and freeze the embryos and having to transfer at a later date.

So there's all sorts of things that you know, variations

and you get access to quite a lot of information.

I was quite surprised actually the level of detail of information

you can have about the donor.

So that really kind of helps with the decision making process, I guess.

Yes.

I mean, you make it sound very simple.

I'm sure there were moments where there were lots of highs

and lows for you, but you...

I was going to say it's a very emotional journey and I have to say,

you know, as I, I mentioned that my first round failed and it's, it's a

really difficult emotional journey.

Because you just don't know what's going to happen.

There's a lot of testing.

There's a lot of blood tests.

There's a lot of going into the clinic and,

It's quite intrusive, isn't it?

It is.

I guess it's a necessity.

But.

It does require...

it takes up a lot of emotional space.

But if it's something that you really want.

It's just something you do.

It's something you do.

Absolutely.

And actually, when you look back, it really isn't that difficult at all.

Let's say that, so if it's something you really, really

want, you, you can just do it.

Well, it's not anything else, isn't it?

I suppose, you know, even like with career, you work really hard.

I mean, you're, you're a very successful lawyer.

And I suppose, going through the exams and having to pursue your career.

I think anything that you want doesn't come easy, but if you're committed

and you're motivated, I guess it just becomes part of a journey, right?

Absolutely.

And, you know, I think I was quite lucky because I was

successful on my second attempt.

I know people who have.

spent tens of thousands of pounds, perhaps done, you know, 10 rounds of

IVF before they've been successful.

So it's difficult because as I say, the emotional space it takes up.

And what's the success rate?

So you talked a little bit about, so successful, I guess there is no specific

kind of answer to that because like you say, you can be very lucky and you

can hit straight away or, you know, it can take years and years and years.

So I guess.

You know, when you're talking to kind of professionals in this space,

do they tend to say, actually, this is how long it should take.

And actually, you know, do they say there should be a certain period where

you actually think actually it's time to give up or, you know, what, what's,

what, what is the success rate generally

? Charny: I think you're right.

So it's so difficult because you can't really say give a

percentage or something like that.

I think when you're using donor donor sperm then, you

know, That tends to be tested.

So you have information, some information about that.

And again, on the website for the donors, it will quite often, it

will say whether or not that donor has had a successful pregnancy.

So that's one of the factors you would take into account.

With donor, if you're choosing to also use donor egg, then most clinics will

tend to tell you that they're allowed to.

use eggs for women at the age of 35, but actually that they choose to recruit from

people who are much younger than that.

So the chance of success would probably be higher simply because

there is less likely to be any chromosomal abnormality with the eggs.

The eggs should be of a much, much better quality.

So I think the chances of success using donor is, is, is going to be higher.

So if you are most, maybe everyone will want to try with their own eggs.

And if that doesn't work, then there is this alternative path, and there

are many women who have, you know, gone down that route, and I think there's

any shame in it, in the same way that, you know, if you choose to use donor

sperm, that it's, it's a means to an end.

Hmm.

I was just thinking about, you know, what you were saying about some of the

organizations, and I guess you would certainly endorse making sure the

organization is fully vetted and credible.

And I'm sure you're all over this because you're a lawyer, but you know, are

there any kind of legal considerations or that you need to be thinking about?

And also from a contractual perspective between the, the, the donor and the

whole fertility process, is there any kind of legal things to think about?

Certainly from, I think if you're Going down the route of going to, to,

it's one of these big organizations like Cryos or European sperm Bank, then

actually it's simply transactional.

You have no contact with the donor whatsoever.

You know, say they, they're supposed to be totally anonymous.

So what you are effectively doing is going shopping.

And, and that's the end of your relationship with them.

People have gone down different routes though, so I know people who have, who

are in the same sex relationship who have used a friend to obtain sperm that way,

there are, I understand lots of online groups where people are, you know, will

offer to, to, to, to help help out.

So I think that there probably could be lots of complications legally

there, obviously but it's not something that I know a great deal about.

I think it would, but I, Obviously, if you were going to go to a friend and

ask them to assist, then I think you do really need to kind of perhaps go and

speak to a family lawyer because there are issues about parental responsibility

and they are genetically the, the father.

So probably want to, to make sure that you'd ironed out

the legal type of, before you proceed.

Yeah.

But certainly I think it's a lot easier from my perspective

because I have done this on my own.

And.

That there is no father as such on the birth certificate.

Hmm.

And I guess one of the, the limiting factors for a lot of

people are around the cost.

So, you know, I was speaking to someone recently about there's

something called like double donations.

So for those that don't know, double donations, basically when the sperm and

egg are donated from anonymous donors.

So this basically results in creating a fertilized embryo.

which is then implanted into the recipient's uterus.

So I wasn't even aware of this.

So it's an amazing process for those that don't have a viable egg or a

single egg and they can't fertilize.

So I think there are a number of ways that can be donated and

you can obviously have a child.

I'm not sure if you know much about double donation, but do you know

the cost generally around, you know, donation, the way that you do it,

or kind of other options available?

I think, again, the cost of IVF treatment can vary so dramatically.

So there is lots of different options.

And I think so for example, I mentioned earlier, there's IUI, which is

artificial insemination, there's IVF.

Where you can have, you know, if you're a couple, you can use

your own sperm and your own egg.

You can have a donor egg, you can use donor sperm, you can use donor egg, you

can use both donor egg and donor sperm.

And each clinic is going to price very, very differently.

I think you're looking at a ballpark of at least 5, 000 to 10, 000 once you've

taken the medication into, into accounts, because medication can be quite expensive,

looking at one to two thousand pounds just for the medication for a cycle alone.

Sperm could be another two thousand pounds.

So you do start, even though you go into the clinic, initially they

might tell you that it's only going to be three or four thousand pounds.

There are so many other add ons that they kind of, you know,

will try and talk to you about.

The HFEA website is really useful for that.

I think it tells you talks a little bit about these add ons.

That's the, the UK.

I mean, I did find that my, I think the treatment abroad was probably a little

bit cheaper, but by the time you've taken into account accommodation and travel

it worked out to be roughly the same.

But I just felt that the treatment abroad was just of much better quality.

The attention I got was a lot better.

And actually the medication, the same medication was available for a

lower price in Athens than it would have been if I bought it in London.

So I think for a single round I would, I would say that you're

looking at about 5, 000 to 10, 000.

So with Donut X I think what you'll do, the clinics, I think will just

price you for a package which will involve that, include that cost.

So I think in abroad, it might, you might be looking at about five or 6, 000 euros.

But of course that is going to be a little bit more expensive because

effectively there is a going to be a donor who IVF treatment.

On your behalf.

Yeah.

Is there support for funding at all?

So I don't know from the government or through insurances.

Is there any way that, that people can access funding?

I don't think there is in the UK.

As I say, I've met I did join quite a lot of Facebook fertility groups.

And my, I sensed that there was in the US.

Perhaps there was some help via insurance, but certainly not in the UK.

Not that I'm aware of.

I think if you're in a couple again, it's not something I, I

would not have been illegible, but I think if you're in a couple,

obviously you can go down the route.

I think they refer to it as the postcode lottery that depending on where

you live, that your local authority might assist you with IVF treatment.

I don't think there is necessarily any assistance for single women though.

And I think it's a real shame.

There are companies though now that I read about, I'm sure I've read that some of

these big tech companies are encouraging and and allowing or providing support

for younger women to freeze their eggs.

Early on in their career, which is, you know, which is amazing

because this process is not cheap.

But you know, I know, say if you're, if you've been doing round after

round for years, then, you know, I know people who've said they've

spent 50 odd thousand pounds on this.

It does accumulate.

I mean, it can do, and I think ultimately, which is why I think it can

be, you know, it becomes a real emotional subject for people because it's something

they desperately, desperately want.

And I think it's.

There are so many people who need assistance.

It's, it's quite.

Interesting, that it's only after you've had treatment that perhaps,

you know, a number of my friends have mentioned that, Oh, well, actually

we had IVF as well, and I'm just so much closer to such a bit as well.

It's not something that you should feel the need to talk about.

But I think it helps, I think, for people to understand that even if you are in a

relationship with somebody, fertility is not something you can take for granted.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you mentioned actually, I was just picked on the point around community.

So their Facebook communities, I'm sure that's on most social media platforms.

But I guess it can be quite a lonely process.

Even if you've got the support of friends and family, you want people that are

actually in that process themselves.

So Were you able to kind of plug into different communities of

people that were talking about this or going through the process?

I have followed a, an Instagram account called The Stork and I for several

years, which is run by Mel Johnson.

So it's basically charting her story, her decision making the decision to, to, to

have a child on her own in her, in her thirties, because she, you know, there's

similar reasons that I've mentioned, you know, thinking that I have to wait for.

the right person to come along.

And she actually runs various training courses.

I've not attended any of them, but it's just been useful to know that

there are a lot of other people in a similar boat to yourself.

There is help out there.

I, I've not felt the necessarily the need, but I think there is a whole community.

Once you've given birth, you know, there's the NCT group.

There are mummy and baby groups.

That whilst you're off on maternity leave that you can join and you

know, so there's quite a lot of different ways of meeting people.

They may not necessarily be in the same position as you but I don't think

necessarily that matters so much because what you're really looking for is just

someone who's, who's going through a similar stage with their child because

that suddenly becomes your main focus.

It's not about the fact that you're single because they're also sort

of on their own during the day.

The only difference is that you're on your own in the evening as well.

And so there is, I guess you don't have to have the arguments about

who's going to wake up in the middle of the night to feed the baby.

Yeah, that's so true.

And I think, as you say, I think a lot more people are becoming a lot

more open about going through these journeys, you know, whether from similar

cultural backgrounds to us or not.

You know, I've certainly seen groups on Facebook and on Instagram.

So I think if people want to hear and feel kind of inspired by people's

journeys, then there certainly are a lot more people, you know, like yourselves

that are talking openly about it.

So I'm sure, you know, there's, there's, there's lots out there.

So one of the things I really wanted to get a sense from you, cause I'm

sure a lot of people would think about this as they're going through or

certainly think about the processes.

Do you have any concerns around the future of explaining this

to your son as he grows up?

You know, is this something you've thought about?

Because inevitably and children are even more inquisitive from a very

young age now, but you know, he's going to say, you know, where's daddy,

I went to school and there was a daddy, you know, that kind of thing.

So I'm guessing it's something which you've probably had thoughts around, you

know, what, what's your kind of view on how you would deal with that situation?

I have a lot more reading up to do.

I have there's, there's some really useful resources out there.

There's the donor conception network.

And I remember a couple of years ago attending a seminar, an online

seminar, which talked about this.

And I think there's also, I follow a couple of Instagram, Instagram

accounts of donor conceived children.

And the message that I'm getting through very loud and clear is that you are

open with the child from the outset.

You introduce the language of donor at a very early early stage.

But I definitely have more work to do there.

So I am yet to join the Donor Conception Network, but I

very much intend to do that.

Just so that I can basically learn all the, all the, you know, how, how

to navigate the difficult, what, But the inevitable questions I mean there

will be very many people, I'm sure, at nursery, you know, where there is no

father figure around but I think it's really important to be honest because

from what I've managed to, to gather so far, those people, those children

who grow up thinking that their parents were x and y, And only subsequently

learn that they were donor conceived, tend to be very upset about it, whereas

those I think who are aware of the situation, they may not understand the

concept of donor when they're young, but it's something that they've always

been aware of I think perhaps can take it a little bit more in stride.

I mean, one of the issues, obviously, that.

you have to think about is that if, for example, they were in the UK, I'd used

a donor from the UK and treatment in the UK, then they would have been able to

find the identity of the donor at age 18.

And of course he's not going to be able to do that.

And that is, again, something I need to just think about very carefully.

So yeah, there are, there's a little bit more work for me to do.

Yeah.

I mean there's plenty of time, he's only five months old, but I think I think it's

become a lot more, you know, this is, this is more of an acceptable process in

society, I think, you know, 20, 30 years ago, if you'd have that conversation with

a child, it would be very different to having that conversation with a child now.

And I've got friends that are actually going through a very similar process

and exactly to your point, you know, what they've all decided is honesty.

is the best policy.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And not overly thinking it through, right?

So when the time comes, you know, do you need to sit there and read a whole pile

of books or listen to other opinions?

Actually, your instinct will always kick in and you'll know

how to handle that conversation.

And from what I'm hearing from you is, is don't sweat, don't sweat

that so much when you're thinking about this process, because..

Yeah.

No, I think that, you know, I think there are so many things that I think

even if you were in a relationship and you were doing it in a couple,

there are things that I would probably be reading to make sure that I was

prepared for this stage, this question.

But No, I think those things that you can worry about later.

I mean, you might want to consider reading up about the subject beforehand,

because, you know, that might determine whether you choose to go to a country

and have treatment where it's non anonymous, you know, where they

are able to find out the identity.

So it's a factor that you, you would take into account perhaps, that,

you know, that's not something, unfortunately, that Due to my decision,

it wasn't at the forefront of my mind when I was having my treatment.

I was just looking for a reputable clinic that had a good success rate

and say I added all my consultations.

I warmed most to this particular doctor who, who did actually work

in London for some time as well.

So, and, and I've been very lucky to say my second attempt.

And I would just encourage people to Think seriously.

This is not a decision that I think you would ever regret taking.

Yeah, no, absolutely not.

And I'm just looking at you, I mean, we've obviously spent some time together

and you know, you're five months in now after having given birth, so, you

know, how are you finding motherhood?

You know, in your kind of late forties, you know, how do you feel?

I can imagine it's challenging.

I mean, when I see you, you're phenomenal.

You are a brilliant multitasker.

And as I say, the little one is always so happy.

Yeah.

So what, what advice would you give to others, you know,

going on this journey around.

You know, once you've had the child, as I say, you make it look

very seamless, but I can imagine there's challenges behind the scenes.

But, you know, I guess you're, you're managing this, right?

And it's probably a bit of a culture shock to begin with, but, you know, how are

you finding that whole kind of process?

I think any new mother is going to struggle.

You know, I don't think people talk about it as much it's surprising

but it's, it's, it's, it's an exhausting process and I think it

comes as just such a shock initially.

You know, there were lots of things that I just imagined would happen, which

is that when the baby slept that he would just sleep and not that he would

want to be held and that I wouldn't be able to do anything at all in between.

So it's been exhausting at times, but actually.

five months in, he's already in a much, much better routine.

He's, he giggles all the time.

And it's actually, it's just lovely to see, to see how just,

just how much changes so quickly.

So actually all of the initial difficulties that I envisage, which

I, as I say, All my NCT mums are going through the same, same process and,

you know, they're in relationships.

It doesn't make any difference.

You know, it is, it is more difficult.

There, there is no doubt about it because there almost is, there's no one who's

going to walk in at six o'clock or seven o'clock in the evening that you can say,

kind of, give me a breather, you know, could you, could you take the baby?

So it can be difficult, but.

I've had a lot of support.

And I think, you know, you develop your own sort of support network.

So unfortunately my parents live three hours away, but my parents

did come down and stay with me initially for a few weeks to help out.

My mum's been back since.

I've had various family and friends coming, coming to stay in between.

So it's worked out really well.

And by, you know, and I think after a little while, initially you think

you're never going to be able to survive and manage this on your own, but you.

You, you, you just do.

And yeah, it's, it's pretty good now.

I, I get, I get a decent night's sleep, so I'm quite happy.

Yeah, each day gets better and better, and I know at some

point you're, you're thinking about returning to your, your fantastic

career that you've built, so.

You know, I think it's reassuring to others actually that, you know, when

you built this career, because I think this is a big area of concern for people

is when they've spent so many of their years, decades, you know, building

their career and, you know, you were a very senior position in the legal

field is can I go back to that career?

Which I know that you're very intent on doing and, and you'll be able

to do that kind of juggling act.

I think it's always going to be difficult for, for, for females.

I think that decision.

A lot of my friends who I mentioned a couple of my friends have definitely

got have already gone down this route.

Both of them were slightly concerned about promotions.

Both of them got their promotions and but there is always a sense that

you're on this wheel, aren't you?

And people are just dangling that sort of promotion in front of you.

And you just think, Oh, one doesn't take time out because I'll fall behind.

Somebody else will get it first.

And actually the only.

The key message I think I'd like to get across is that that career,

that promotion, it can wait.

You might get it anyway, but your futility won't.

And we don't have the luxury of time.

We don't have the ability to just sit there and say, you know what,

I'll wait, I'll wait another five years or, or another 10 years.

You can still have treatments in, into late 40s and even I think early 50s.

So I'm not quite sure what the position is in the UK.

Certainly I know that when the clinic I was having treatments at in, in

Athens I believe the legislation there had been changed post around

COVID so that you could have treatment up to certainly the age of 52.

And I think that might've been extended yet further.

But you know, ultimately you just need to be aware that Come mid thirties, your

infertility is declining significantly and the chances of success using your

own eggs is going to be declining.

And so it's not something that you can just afford to keep

putting on the back burner.

I just think it's nice to be, you know, you can choose to go and freeze your

eggs, you can choose to freeze embryos, and you know, if you really want to

focus on your career, just take out a couple of weeks to have treatment.

You don't need to, you know go all the way immediately.

But it's something I think I would strongly encourage women to think

about, which is that it's very easy to go and have a fertility test.

There are some women who unfortunately have a very small reserve in their 20s.

So it's not to say that everybody in their 30s is going to have a

good chance of being successful.

So I would honestly encourage most women, if you're thinking about it, it's

going to be a couple of hundred pounds.

Go to your local fertility clinic and have and be tested.

So you at least you have some more information about your personal position.

I think you're absolutely right.

And one of the things I've learned, if anything, is that

time just runs away with you.

So I think, you know, if it's something you're seriously thinking about,

is don't hesitate like you say.

Don't put it on the back burner.

Yeah, absolutely.

So you know, I could talk to you all day.

I just find your story fascinating.

And I'm sure everybody that's listening has found it really fascinating as well.

But as a Happiologist I have a couple of quickfire questions.

And one of them is around, you know, what's the key to happiness?

From your perspective, what do you think the key to happiness is?

I think it's about actually creating meaningful relationships in

life, and whether that's, you know, with friends, it's with colleagues, it's

with family, I think that the crux of happiness lies in your ability to form

good relationships with people and And dare I say, I think it's also about being

able to realize a long desired dream.

So for me here, I would say the always wanted to be a mum.

Having managed to to have little Rohan.

I really am sort of incredibly happy in a way that I've never been previously.

I can see that.

I absolutely love that.

And you know, the answer to that question, I've done a few podcasts

now and I get the same answer.

It's around relationships, about connection with others and the positive

psychologist coach, which I am, you know, a lot of what we find our

happiness through isn't material things.

It is actually relationships and connections and And, and like

the connections you're building with the little one, you, you,

that's nothing that money can buy.

And then one more question I was going to ask you is, if you knew

then what you do now, you know, what would you tell your 20 year old self?

Go and get a fertility test.

I had a feeling you might say that.

The one message I would really want to push home it's something I've been

doing ever since I attended a seminar a few years ago and realized that post 45 in

the UK, there's so many clinics that won't even allow, won't even allow, test you

for your fertility using your own eggs.

I think it's really important for people just to be aware that this

is not something that can just wait.

So I think that's probably something I would, if I'd had that at the

forefront of my mind, perhaps.

How I'd chosen to play my career and family might've been different.

Not to say I'm not happy now, but it might've, you know, you said it could

have been, could have been different.

Yeah, our sage advice - anyway Charny look.

Thank you so much for sharing your story again.

What a phenomenal inspiration You know, I've seen you little one on

a number of occasions and you have settled into motherhood seamlessly

And there's so much love between the two of you and I know whilst you're

the first to admit it's challenging, you know, at times, mainly sleep.

You do seem so happy and fulfilled.

You're always smiling.

You always look amazing.

I know that, you know, it's, it's a huge balancing act, but I think when

you find what it is and you're true to yourself, then happiness comes with that.

Right.

And I think you were very true, true to yourself which is so hugely inspiring.

And, you know, You know, from what you're saying and the reassurance that you're

giving is, especially people on the fence about, you know, donating or going through

treatment because, you know, it's so taboo, I think, you know, leaving behind

those old fashioned kind of misogynistic, you know, ideologies, because that's,

that's, they all, you know, they are, you know, you're no less of a woman

because you need to go through a process, you know, to make the next generation.

So, No woman from, you know, what you're saying, what I've heard many people in

the same situation say, you know, no woman should miss out on what could be the most

beautiful journey of her life because society, communities, whoever they are

is limit, has these limiting views on it.

And if I've learned anything today, you know, we should all

follow and trust our instincts.

Because people's worth and values aren't and shouldn't be determined by, you

know, a community that doesn't know you.

They should determined by you alone.

You should determine your fate and what you.

you want to do.

So thank you.

so much.

Thank you everyone for listening.

Thank you for sharing your story, Charny, and I wish love and light to everyone.

Thanks for tuning in lovely listeners.

Any questions or thoughts?

Drop me an email at daltheHappiologist.

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