In this enlightening episode of ‘Doing It On Purpose’, host Dal Banwait, also known as The Happiologist, dives into a real conversation about self discovery, healing and reinvention.
Tracy Vadakumchery, the Bad Indian Therapist joins us to share her journey of becoming her authentic self and defeating cultural and societal expectations. From deep discussions about cultural guilt and shame, to adjusting relationships within cultural confines and the pursuit of happiness, this episode is packed full of insightful thoughts and actionable tips.
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Transcript
Welcome to Doing It On Purpose, your shortcut to reinventing yourself,
Dal:with a few giggles along the way, for all good brown girls and beyond.
Dal:I'm Dal, aka The Happiologist, your host, and after 20 years of
Dal:a lot of work, I've finally bossed this reinventing myself thing.
Dal:As a self proclaimed good brown girl, I've uncovered well being secrets
Dal:from my global travels, and I'm saving you a few decades of work.
Dal:And sharing practical tips for your own reinvention and to
Dal:help you find your purpose.
Dal:And I'll be joined by some seriously smart, good brown girls
Dal:from the field of psychology, therapy, health and well being.
Dal:So if you're ready for a life upgrade, stay tuned.
Dal:And don't forget to follow The Happiologist on social media for
Dal:your daily dose of happy habits.
Dal:I'm Dal, The Happiologist, and I am doing this on purpose.
Dal:Hi everyone, it's your pal Dal.
Dal:Today we're really going to get into the deep and unravel the super important
Dal:topic of how cultural and societal background shapes and limits who we are.
Dal:We're going to get raw and get into the psyche of what it is to be Asian
Dal:and especially in the context of second, third generation Asians and
Dal:trying to define our own identity because we all know how hard that is.
Dal:And if like me and my guest you come from a close knit culture where
Dal:being yourself upsets the community.
Dal:then you're no doubt suppressing parts of your life, restricting
Dal:yourself from expressing who you really want to be, you know, from
Dal:fear of being judged or ostracized.
Dal:And the knock on effect will inevitably lead to resentment and internalizing
Dal:negative beliefs about your culture.
Dal:And we're going to explore this feeling of being a bad Indian or
Dal:Asian girl based on our actions, not meeting societal expectation.
Dal:And here's the really important bit.
Dal:If we let this build up, and we see ourselves through this distorted lens,
Dal:it will impact our mental health.
Dal:That's because our brain holds all this information, it sends signals around our
Dal:body, and inevitably we will get ill.
Dal:And I know.
Dal:Because I'm one of millions this has happened to.
Dal:And I went on that journey, as many of you know, what is sometimes known as, referred
Dal:to as, the Dark Night of the Soul, where you feel so bad that to save yourself, you
Dal:have to go really deep and make changes, or you will completely lose yourself.
Dal:And it benefits no one to stay in this place, and especially when, you know,
Dal:the penny drops, and we realise that what we perceive to be bad actually isn't.
Dal:So today the OG of Good Brown Girls meets the OG of Bad Indian Girls.
Dal:I'm so happy to introduce the awesome Tracy Vadakumchery, a self
Dal:proclaimed bad Indian girl who, like me, went on the journey to freedom
Dal:of becoming her authentic self.
Dal:And Tracy is amazing.
Dal:She's a therapist and graduated with a Master of Arts in
Dal:Education in Psychological Counseling at Columbia University.
Dal:And since graduating, she's worked with a whole host of people with a focus
Dal:on women from ethnic backgrounds, and there's loads of great content on her
Dal:social under the Bad Indian Therapist.
Dal:Tracy works with South Asian clients and people from all walks
Dal:of life who have trouble with guilt driven anxiety behaviors,
Dal:which I'm sure we can relate to.
Dal:And this is what leads aptly for her to call Perfect Indian Girl Syndrome.
Dal:So I really want to get into that.
Dal:So Tracy grew up Indian and Catholic.
Dal:So I don't need to remind our listeners of the whole array of multicultural
Dal:psychological beliefs, Tracy would have to deal with like many of us.
Dal:Tracy, welcome.
Dal:I absolutely love you and what you stand for.
Dal:And when I came across you and your work, I was so excited as we share the same
Dal:lived experiences around guilt and shame.
Dal:And our driver is to help other people unlock how their belief system
Dal:and society is holding them back and make them unwell inevitably.
Dal:And I really love the challenge you gave me when we first spoke about
Dal:happiness not being sustainable, being happy all the time is a fallacy and
Dal:how people shouldn't always be chasing happiness and learn to be content.
Dal:So.
Dal:We're definitely on the same page there.
Dal:So your story is fascinating, so let's start there if we can.
Dal:Can you share a bit about what it was like growing up Indian and Catholic,
Dal:you know, what you experienced and how you overcame the challenges
Dal:that came with that upbringing?
Tracy:Yeah, Dal, It's so great to speak with you and I'm so excited to
Tracy:talk about, you know, what it really truly means to be a quote unquote
Tracy:good Indian girl or a bad Indian.
Tracy:And also, you know, what it means to truly be happy, and I would say that
Tracy:growing up Indian and Catholic was definitely a double whammy of cultural
Tracy:guilt and shame from both religion, you know, Catholic guilt and culture,
Tracy:I think like there's a special brand of Indian guilt, especially if you are
Tracy:the daughter of immigrant parents or the adult child of immigrant parents.
Tracy:There's a special kind of guilt for knowing that like, oh, my
Tracy:parents sacrificed so much to give me these opportunities.
Tracy:I owe them something.
Tracy:And I, I grew up in what would probably be considered, We're a very
Tracy:conservative religious household.
Tracy:My, my parents are devout Catholics.
Tracy:My entire family is devout Catholics and they live in the Malayalee bubble, so
Tracy:to speak, of like just not even being attentive to the world around them, at
Tracy:times being a little bit naive, kind of like hyper focused on their own You
Tracy:know, struggles and problems and that in combination with like this, like, you
Tracy:should be grateful, so don't complain kind of mentality that the toxic gratitude
Tracy:made it really hard for me to kind of express myself or express my needs or for
Tracy:like people in my family, my siblings, my cousins to kind of express themselves and
Tracy:express their needs because there's this idea that there's like one correct path.
Tracy:And you know, in some ways my family was, you know, pretty progressive in
Tracy:that, like we did mingle with people who were not Indian very often.
Tracy:Growing up Catholic.
Tracy:We, there's obviously Catholic churches for people who are Malayali Indian,
Tracy:and then there are, you know, regular Sunday church with other white Americans.
Tracy:So there was some willingness to kind of get to know some people who were
Tracy:different from us, but overall, still pretty conservative, especially in
Tracy:terms of beliefs about women's autonomy.
Tracy:I do think that growing up.
Tracy:There was definitely an emphasis placed on education and financial freedom for women,
Tracy:but only so long as it was a respectable career and she provided for her family.
Tracy:It was like, you know, women should make money, but ultimately it's for the family.
Tracy:It's not for you.
Tracy:It should never be for you.
Tracy:And it was still giving much, a very Stepford wife kind of
Tracy:mentality, so to speak about like being the perfect Indian girl.
Tracy:Yes.
Tracy:You have a great job.
Tracy:Yes.
Tracy:You can bring home money, but your ultimate dedication is supposed to be
Tracy:to your family and to your husband.
Tracy:And.
Tracy:Everything else that comes with being a good girl.
Tracy:And I knew very early on that this was not the path that I wanted.
Tracy:And it was hard to speak up.
Tracy:And sometimes when I spoke up, I was often told that I'm being disrespectful.
Tracy:I'm being selfish.
Tracy:And I very much thought that, like, something's wrong with me.
Tracy:I'm a bad person for speaking up.
Tracy:And to be honest, it still continues to this day.
Tracy:I'm a therapist.
Tracy:I have anxiety.
Tracy:You know, I always get anxiety about speaking up.
Tracy:I have anxiety to this day, but it's, it's about being able to learn how to tolerate
Tracy:that anxiety and continue to be yourself, even if it upsets and disappoints people.
Dal:Yeah, completely.
Dal:You know, it's funny you were saying that, and I was one of those people
Dal:that was branded, you know, black sheep, whatever you want to call it, because
Dal:I, Apparently I had opinions which were different to other people, but actually
Dal:my opinions weren't different to other people, it's just that I expressed them.
Dal:So, I know what it is to be kind of categorized in that way, and it, and
Dal:it's super tough, and I also love the way that you're so honest about the fact
Dal:that You know, you have such an awareness of what it is to be in this community
Dal:and, you know, stand up for yourself at the same time doesn't mean the anxiety
Dal:goes away overnight because, you know, we're talking to two actually good,
Dal:good Indian girls that actually branded probably in the past, probably still to
Dal:this day, bad Indian girls, but we're not but there'll always be that kind of
Dal:subconscious or that feeling somewhere that makes us feel anxious, right?
Dal:That, yeah.
Dal:Actually, the more kind of societal view on who we are isn't right.
Dal:So I love the fact that you're very honest about that to say
Dal:it doesn't completely go away.
Dal:It will always be there, but actually continue to, to lead
Dal:forward in your own truth.
Dal:It's so important.
Dal:So I love that.
Dal:Thank you for.
Dal:For sharing your stories it's, it feels like, I suppose, you know,
Dal:everyone can empathize, we've all been in a kind of similar situation.
Dal:So the bit that I really want to get into is, you know, you mentioned a
Dal:lot of the work that you do is around guilt and shame, which, you know, from
Dal:my perspective, and I know you, you've seen this so many times with, you know,
Dal:people that you work with, and just more generally that guilt and shame
Dal:is instrumental to a person's mental health, their kind of state of mind.
Dal:So can you, for the benefit of our listeners, you know, just talk a
Dal:bit about what you mean by that.
Dal:How do we know that we are victim to guilt and shame because a lot of us
Dal:actually don't know it's so subconscious right in these limiting beliefs and stuck
Dal:down below and you know, in our more informative years we were told these
Dal:things but actually, how do we know that we're actually victims of guilt and shame?
Tracy:So the reason why I talk about guilt and shame in particular
Tracy:is because they're central.
Tracy:to a lot of mental health disorders, namely anxiety driven disorders.
Tracy:And a lot of anxiety driven disorders are also trauma based.
Tracy:And I believe that people who have gone through childhood trauma, family trauma,
Tracy:they have some kind of conditioning.
Tracy:They've been conditioned to believe that standing up for
Tracy:themselves and that standing up for their own well being is wrong.
Tracy:And that's why when so many South Asians, people of South Asian descent,
Tracy:when they attempt to set or communicate a boundary, they often feel like
Tracy:they're doing something wrong, right?
Tracy:They feel, they feel an intense amount of guilt.
Tracy:You know, they, they have a lot of anxiety doing it.
Tracy:It doesn't feel good.
Tracy:So when they set that boundary, when they communicate that boundary, when
Tracy:there's a conflict, when people disagree with them, they are made to feel
Tracy:like, Oh, I'm doing something wrong.
Tracy:Right.
Tracy:And in some cases that is what's called gaslighting and, or maybe
Tracy:not even gaslighting from people who are criticizing you or people who
Tracy:are upset with you for setting the boundary, but that you're almost kind
Tracy:of, the guilt that you feel is almost gaslighting yourself into thinking
Tracy:that you're doing something wrong.
Tracy:But before I go any further, I do want to say that there's no such
Tracy:thing as a bad or good emotion.
Tracy:All emotions are value neutral, even if they make you feel shitty.
Tracy:Anxiety.
Tracy:I have anxiety.
Tracy:It doesn't make me feel good, but it is value neutral.
Tracy:Sometimes your anxiety is trying to tell you something.
Tracy:Your guilt is trying to tell you something.
Tracy:The shame that you feel is trying to tell you something.
Tracy:And sometimes.
Tracy:These emotions are telling you either something about your values as a
Tracy:person, that you're not living in integrity with your values, or that
Tracy:you've been conditioned to believe that you're doing something wrong, or both.
Tracy:And I think that when we lean into listening to our emotions, we can
Tracy:kind of determine for ourselves What our gut is telling us if our
Tracy:gut is telling us like, Hey, you're living in accordance of your values.
Tracy:You've just been conditioned to believe that this is wrong or
Tracy:that, you know, you haven't been living according to your values.
Tracy:You know, sometimes our guilt tells us to be attuned to others needs.
Tracy:Part of growing up in a community oriented culture, like growing up
Tracy:Indian, tells us to be attuned to the needs of people in our community.
Tracy:But sometimes our guilt also blinds us from questioning if other
Tracy:people's needs are necessarily valid or if they're abusive.
Tracy:And it stops us from really recognizing when we're being taken advantage of.
Tracy:Guilt is the feeling of doing something bad or wrong.
Tracy:Shame is when you think that you're bad for doing something wrong.
Tracy:And sometimes this is true and sometimes it's not.
Dal:Wow.
Dal:Yeah.
Dal:I think so much resonated there.
Dal:I think we can all You know, I'm sure every, every listener, no matter what
Dal:kind of cultural background they're from, can kind of relate to that in some way.
Dal:And I think, you know, the bit that you say around, and this is a really important
Dal:bit, because I've learnt this the hard way, Tracy, is around facing into your
Dal:emotions, because it feels so much easier.
Dal:Not to face into your emotions because that's a scary place to be.
Dal:And I mentioned earlier, the dark night of the soul, which I had, which, you
Dal:know a lot of us have been through a journey for, for, for whatever term we
Dal:want to use, have had to face into it because there's no alternative, right?
Dal:You either face into it or you lose yourself completely.
Dal:And this is what happened to me.
Dal:Mine culminated in panic attacks and they were horrific panic attacks, you know, to
Dal:the point that I had to go to ER, right?
Dal:So they were quite bad.
Dal:You know, I'd had so many cardiology tests.
Dal:I'm very honest about people around this.
Dal:I had a lot of cardiology tests and the cardiologist said, look, there's
Dal:nothing wrong with your heart.
Dal:Have you ever thought about, you know, getting therapy?
Dal:And I was like, are you kidding me?
Dal:Like, I'm, I'm happy.
Dal:I've just had a, you know, panic attack.
Dal:People have panic attacks, don't they?
Dal:And, you know, he gave me that kind of look, which, you know doctors do
Dal:when I was in complete denial, and actually I did, so I did go deep,
Dal:and I did, you know I did consult a therapist, and actually, it transpired
Dal:exactly to what you're saying, that there were so many emotions that I had.
Dal:You know, kept in and blocked and kept pushing down and pushing them
Dal:down, pushing them down that actually, I didn't even know I was doing it.
Dal:And then it came to something drastic to happen.
Dal:And, you know, and I collapsed and I had to, ended up going to a yard, but but
Dal:yeah, that I had to face into that truth.
Dal:And, you know, those panic attacks were really horrific, really, really
Dal:horrific, but it just exactly what you said, just kind of gave me a bit
Dal:of made my hair stand on end when I was thinking you're absolutely right
Dal:until you face into those emotions.
Dal:then you're never going to get to a better place.
Tracy:It is definitely about listening within, not suppressing.
Tracy:And I tell people that like, the goal of our work here is to get uncomfortable.
Tracy:And I don't like feeling uncomfortable.
Tracy:No one likes to feel uncomfortable.
Tracy:You know, we don't pay to be uncomfortable.
Tracy:We pay for comfort.
Tracy:That is really the route to being able to heal yourself and also listen to yourself.
Tracy:When you give yourself permission to feel what you feel, that's when
Tracy:it's easier to kind of know what answers are the best ones for you.
Tracy:You know, that's the first step.
Tracy:If you don't feel what your feet, what you're, if you don't feel what
Tracy:you feel, you're never going to know how to be your own therapist.
Dal:Gosh, that is so deep and so very true.
Dal:I just want to go back to kind of cultural and religious trauma.
Dal:So.
Dal:Yeah, how do we know we're being impacted?
Dal:By this, because again, it can feel very subconscious, it hasn't, it hasn't come
Dal:to the surface and a lot of us would say, well, that's actually who I am without
Dal:questioning, well, actually is this me?
Dal:So, how do we know, how do we identify what beliefs, you know, we have?
Dal:That might limit us from being our authentic self.
Dal:So, you know, as I say, my story is that I was in denial,
Dal:you know, over a few things.
Dal:I did all the things, ticked off the list, you know, what I thought
Dal:a good brown girl should do.
Dal:But realized actually quite quickly, that's what I thought I needed to do.
Dal:And what people wanted me to do, but the reality of it is, in my
Dal:view, no one really cares if I do all those good brown girl things.
Dal:And who is it we're trying to impress anyway?
Dal:Is it, you know, Aunty Gill who lives up the street and has
Dal:a lot to say about everyone?
Dal:Is me doing all the things she expects me to do going to impact her life?
Dal:Is it going to impact her well being?
Dal:And no, I don't her anything.
Dal:I mean, so why is she controlling my life?
Dal:And it, and, you know, inevitably my wellbeing, I feel
Dal:I'm getting quite worked up.
Dal:Now I don't even have an Auntie Gill, but you know, you get my point . So, so how do
Dal:we, how do we know how, how do we identify what beliefs are ours from others, which
Dal:stop us from being our authentic self?
Dal:How do we get deeper into that?
Tracy:So the first part is also arming yourself with education, and as a licensed
Tracy:therapist, I will tell you that, you know, cultural factors have been linked
Tracy:to significant anxiety disorders for South Asian women, and of course, cultural norms
Tracy:are not the only factor for why somebody could develop an anxiety disorder.
Tracy:There's also biological and hereditary, epigenetic, environmental, all these
Tracy:other different factors that kind of play into why our anxiety can be significant.
Tracy:At moments there have been studies that show that there is a correlation
Tracy:between South Asian women who have eating disorders, which are anxiety driven
Tracy:disorders or disordered eating body image issues and how acculturated they are to
Tracy:these expectations about thinness and what it means to be beautiful in the community.
Tracy:And, you know, that, that knowing that, knowing that there is a correlation,
Tracy:knowing that there is some kind of relationship between cultural
Tracy:norms and significant mental health issues can help us know when certain
Tracy:beliefs and when certain norms can be unhealthy, when certain rules that
Tracy:we hold ourselves for the culture, quote unquote, can be unhealthy.
Tracy:Sometimes it's hard to know you're being impacted by these cultural
Tracy:norms because you might be a community oriented person, and it's natural
Tracy:to be attuned to the needs of your community, your religion, your culture.
Tracy:But the thing is, we're often relying on other people's oral
Tracy:history, what other people tell us.
Tracy:Rather than taking the time to form our own relationship
Tracy:with our religion and culture.
Tracy:And if you are a particularly religious person, for instance, if you are somebody
Tracy:who is Christian and you believe in God or you believe in Jesus Christ.
Tracy:I'm not religious, but you know, there are people who are.
Tracy:Often there's many Christians, many Catholics who have experienced
Tracy:a lot of religious trauma.
Tracy:But they recovered not just through going through therapy, but developing
Tracy:their own relationship with God outside of the church, having their
Tracy:own relationship with religion.
Tracy:And they've often found community among like minded
Tracy:people who had similar journeys.
Tracy:People who are like, Hey, I've been through that too.
Tracy:Yeah, that was me.
Tracy:And.
Tracy:They are able to kind of weave this common thread of collective trauma of
Tracy:like, oh, hey, you know, we experienced religious trauma, we developed our
Tracy:own relationship with God, and these are the similar conclusions that we
Tracy:came to, and there's power in that.
Tracy:So, you know, there's nothing wrong with wanting community.
Tracy:But you have to question who your community is.
Tracy:And when you do that, that's when you start being able to identify
Tracy:your own values and being able to trust your gut and know like, hey,
Tracy:this is right versus this is wrong.
Tracy:For me, right?
Tracy:Like, it's also about, like, what is good for you.
Dal:That's such a, it's such a pertinent point, because as you were talking there,
Dal:it reminded me also of, you know, we talk about religion, and, you know, I think
Dal:I've got a much better, I'm Sikh, and I've got a much better understanding of
Dal:of Sikhi, of Sikhism, because I have built my own relationship with my religion,
Dal:and I understand it, and actually, You know how these things work, is sometimes
Dal:you're almost brought into places of fear.
Dal:You know, with religious concepts, right?
Dal:But actually, my religion, as most religions, right, are, are so beautiful
Dal:and so powerful and actually a very uplifting and, you know, encouraging
Dal:of, of, of, you know, people's well being and how they are and how,
Dal:you know, they live their lives.
Dal:And I guess all this kind of gets mixed up, doesn't it?
Dal:With lots of, like you say, community and thoughts and people's opinions.
Dal:And actually, you know, stepping back to your own point and saying,
Dal:actually, one, even from a religious perspective, you know, having your own
Dal:relationship with it and understanding, you know, what's your journey there?
Dal:And actually, what does it stand for in your own kind of definition?
Dal:And also with community, you know, what, what is.
Dal:What is definition of community to me?
Dal:How is it serving me and being able to explore that?
Dal:Because I think there's again, I use that word fear quite a lot in these past
Dal:podcasts is that there's that there's a huge fear, I think, certainly with
Dal:people from kind of ethnic backgrounds, you know, to be able to explore or
Dal:challenge the status quo, because we're You know, worried about you know,
Dal:what we're told is, is fact, right?
Dal:Whatever we're told as we're growing up is fact.
Dal:It's factual.
Dal:And there's this real fear to be able to, you know, challenge that.
Dal:And I guess the point you're, you're making as well is it's okay to,
Dal:to challenge these, some of these things and then, you know, go a bit
Dal:deeper and ask yourself, actually.
Dal:you know, is this, is this right?
Dal:Is this normal?
Dal:Whatever normal is.
Tracy:Yeah, I, I think that it's such a hard, I, I'm not saying, I'm
Tracy:not suggesting that this is easy or a simple process to do, you know, it takes
Tracy:time as well to, to figure this out.
Dal:I Mean, as I went through my journey as well, I guess you're going
Dal:to upset the apple cart somewhere.
Dal:There's going to be people in your community and your family that are
Dal:questioning saying, actually, you know, why are you asking these questions?
Dal:Why are you being so in a way?
Dal:Why do you want to live abroad?
Dal:Why do you want to travel the world and all those things?
Dal:And I'm quite lucky.
Dal:I've got very, very supportive, open minded parents, actually.
Dal:They're very religious as well.
Dal:I think they've got, you know, really good understanding of it, of our religion.
Dal:So and also community.
Dal:So, you know.
Dal:I feel like, to an extent, you know, I've got kind of the best of both
Dal:worlds in that regard, but the whole situation around relationships and
Dal:how you're perceived and how you deal with relationships when you're trying
Dal:to be yourself, I suppose, is, is an area which probably deserves, you
Dal:know, a little bit more explanation.
Dal:You know, exploration.
Dal:So, you know, you and I have talked in the past about the let them theory, which
Dal:Mel Robbins coined and that went viral and it's so simple, but so relevant.
Dal:So, you know, for those that don't know, you know, it's acknowledging,
Dal:we can't control other people and letting go of expectations
Dal:transforms us and our relationship.
Dal:You know, many parents, particularly from Asian descent, through no fault of
Dal:their own, and let's, let's be right, you know, have it right, it's not
Dal:their fault, you know, want to, or feel the need to control or persuade their
Dal:children to be who they want them to be.
Dal:Or again, we're going back to community, what community we want them to be.
Dal:And it manages their own anxieties.
Dal:It, you know, they have a bit more control and they're able to
Dal:save face and, and inevitably.
Dal:And you know this better than anyone else, because I'm sure you talk about it with
Dal:clients all the time, but both parties are going to end up frustrated and exhausted.
Dal:And when you let it go and let each other be, then, you know,
Dal:better relationships result.
Dal:So, you know, I learned the hard way, actually, that if I was more open with
Dal:my family and my parents, that, you know, the journey would be so much easier.
Dal:And I didn't trust them enough to, to recognize that actually.
Dal:What I was doing was okay.
Dal:So the moment I was able to open up, it was great.
Dal:Our relationships worked even better on both sides.
Dal:So can you expand a little bit on how people can put this into practice, you
Dal:know, particularly with family, you know, or society to kind of achieve
Dal:this place, you know, in relationships.
Tracy:Yeah, you know, I, I will say like setting boundaries with your
Tracy:parents, regardless of whether or not it's hurting you or hurting them.
Tracy:If it's good for you, if it's good for them, it's never going to feel good.
Tracy:It's never going to feel good.
Tracy:You are always going to feel anxious setting boundaries with your parents.
Tracy:And when you go up against your parents.
Tracy:You have to acknowledge if what you're about to do is aligned with
Tracy:your values, not necessarily with your feelings, but with your values,
Tracy:or if it goes against your values.
Tracy:And if you're actually hurting your parents, it won't
Tracy:feel good to your values.
Tracy:But if your parents experience disappointment or frustration for
Tracy:something that might give you more freedom, you know, decrease your anxiety
Tracy:over time, then your parents might come around and see that it's good for you.
Tracy:It's still not going to feel good in the moment.
Tracy:Yeah.
Tracy:When you set that boundary with them and you experience their disappointment,
Tracy:frustration, their conflict with you, it's not going to feel good.
Tracy:Even if it's good for you in the long term, it's not going
Tracy:to feel good in the short term.
Tracy:So just Keeping that in mind, sometimes we have to realize that our parents'
Tracy:disappointment and frustration is temporary and that they can cope.
Tracy:You know, they've had to deal with a lot of stress way before
Tracy:you came into the picture.
Tracy:Mm-Hmm.
Tracy:, right?
Tracy:Mm-Hmm.
Tracy:. Your, your parents came here for a better life.
Tracy:I came here to give you a better life so that way you can have a better life and
Tracy:that means that you get to have options.
Tracy:And it can be simple as saying, no, I will not do dot, dot, dot.
Tracy:And if you'd like, you can say, and here's why.
Tracy:Sometimes you might have to do a little bit of explaining with.
Tracy:Elder immigrant parents because they really sometimes just do not get it,
Tracy:but they do want to understand you So a little bit of explaining can go a long
Tracy:way Just know that when you go up against your parents when you go up against your
Tracy:relatives It's gonna bear repeating.
Tracy:It's gonna require a lot of Patience you're going to
Tracy:sound like a broken record.
Tracy:And yes They are going to be pissed.
Tracy:They are.
Tracy:They're going to be pissed, especially if they're so used to you constantly
Tracy:obeying them, they're going to be upset.
Tracy:And it's never going to get better unless you change something.
Tracy:Setting boundaries with your parents will require a lot, a lot of patience.
Tracy:You're going to have to repeat yourself.
Tracy:They're going to conveniently forget.
Tracy:You know, whether intentionally they intentionally forgot or
Tracy:they purposely forgot, it doesn't matter if it was genuine or not.
Tracy:They're gonna forget.
Tracy:You will have to bear repeating, you know, it's, it starts with you.
Tracy:It, you know, it, it, it did, well actually I should say it didn't start
Tracy:with you, but it will end with you.
Tracy:And you have to be part of that solution.
Tracy:You're not going to get it from your parents.
Tracy:Your parents are not going to make it easier for you.
Tracy:You have to set the tone.
Tracy:You have to set the expectation.
Tracy:As an adult, right?
Tracy:There's a difference between being 5 years old or 15 years old and
Tracy:living under your parents rules.
Tracy:At that point, you're a minor.
Tracy:You know, there's only so much you can do, but when you're an adult, you
Tracy:have more power than you think you do.
Dal:Okay, so you know what, I was just thinking you were
Dal:saying that, you know, adult.
Dal:I mean, I'm hitting my 50s now, and I think I don't know whether
Dal:it's just in South Asian cultures, but do we ever stop being kids?
Dal:Because when you, when you hit your 50s, you should feel brave
Dal:enough to be able to say what you're thinking and feeling, right?
Dal:And start to live your own path.
Dal:But again, I don't know whether it's an ethnic thing, second
Dal:generation, I don't know.
Dal:But it's interesting how, you know, it doesn't matter what age
Dal:you are, you're still a child.
Dal:You're still very conscious and aware.
Dal:Of what, of obviously first and foremost what your family, your parents think,
Dal:but then community and all those things.
Dal:And I think it is about, you know, if the dark night of the soul
Dal:incident hadn't happened for me, you know, stepping into my brave.
Dal:I think that my life would be completely different, right?
Dal:I'd still be doing the things which I thought I was supposed to be.
Dal:But actually I'm not upset anyone, I'm not hurt anybody.
Dal:And I was able to step into my brave, you know, for want of a better term.
Dal:And then just like you say, slowly, slowly start to have those conversations.
Dal:You don't have to do it in an aggressive way.
Dal:You know, it's about dropping those kind of, you know, small
Dal:hints or, you know, having that real kind of relaxed conversation
Dal:saying, you know, and just being.
Dal:being brave and owning that a little bit more, but it's, it doesn't
Dal:have to be scary territory, right?
Tracy:I think that our parents have anxiety too.
Tracy:Our parents have anxiety, they have depression, and they also avoid their
Tracy:anxiety by Getting you to do things and expecting you to obey them.
Tracy:So when you disobey them, you are doing exposure therapy with them in a way.
Tracy:Like you're, you're doing exposure therapy for yourself with your anxiety,
Tracy:your anxiety about setting boundaries.
Tracy:They also have to kind of go through their own exposure therapy with
Tracy:you, their anxiety about their kid no longer listening to them, their
Tracy:kid no longer obeying them, right?
Tracy:Their kids are adults now.
Tracy:And that's gonna give them anxiety too.
Tracy:So when they get frustrated, and when they get angry, they're
Tracy:reacting on their own anxiety.
Tracy:They are scared of losing control over you because they've
Tracy:placed so much happiness in you.
Tracy:And, you know, that makes sense.
Tracy:But that doesn't mean that you guys have to be so attached all the time.
Tracy:They kind of have to go through their own exposure therapy.
Dal:And I often say, right, a lot of it is, and this is where I empathize,
Dal:they sacrificed everything so we can have the life that they can have.
Dal:But then we're trying to live up to the life that they wanted, which might not
Dal:necessarily fit with our own narrative.
Dal:So, you know, that's where the kind of struggles.
Dal:You know, can start, right, because we, it's almost like we're paying back, right.
Dal:For what, for the struggles that we know that they've had.
Dal:So therefore then the guilt kicks in, which is what, you
Dal:know, we're talking about.
Dal:So we're now armed, you know, we know what is limiting on us.
Dal:Cause we obviously talked about it.
Dal:So where, where do we start in terms of working on this?
Dal:How do we break those boundaries and how do we start to, I guess, reframe
Dal:these messages we keep telling ourselves so we can move forward and start to.
Dal:I guess get into that more authentic self that we're talking about.
Tracy:I Think the first step is learning how to question
Tracy:our self defeating beliefs.
Tracy:And our self defeating beliefs are kind of beliefs that, you know, they might be
Tracy:true or helpful in certain circumstances, but in a lot of circumstances,
Tracy:they may actually be holding us back and even hurting us at times.
Tracy:So you know, these beliefs are thoughts that we have.
Tracy:A thought could be, I can never marry somebody that my parents disapprove of.
Tracy:So, you have to recognize that that's all or nothing black and white thinking.
Tracy:That, that use of the word never, that's all or nothing black and white thinking.
Tracy:So you gotta ask yourself, this belief that I have, that I can never marry
Tracy:somebody my parents disapprove of, is this black and white thinking,
Tracy:does this always have to be true?
Tracy:Or are there some circumstances where they are not true?
Tracy:Is this belief helpful in this circumstance?
Tracy:Is this belief helpful when I am trying to find a life partner
Tracy:for me, somebody I can live with?
Tracy:Is it helpful?
Tracy:Is it, is it actually helping me in my search?
Tracy:Is this kind to myself?
Tracy:Is this kind to my needs and my desire to be with somebody that
Tracy:makes me feel emotionally safe?
Tracy:And last but not least, is it true?
Tracy:Okay.
Tracy:Maybe it might be a little bit true that my parents would be disappointed,
Tracy:but that doesn't mean that I can't be with someone of my choosing.
Tracy:So asking yourself, is this black and white?
Tracy:Is it helpful in the circumstances?
Tracy:Is it kind?
Tracy:Is it true?
Tracy:That would be the first step.
Dal:We hear a lot about kind of EMDR.
Dal:Is that a technique that's used in EMDR?
Tracy:EMDR to kind of take something, it takes it a little bit further.
Tracy:So what I suggested in terms of asking yourself, is this
Tracy:black and white thinking?
Tracy:Is this helpful in the circumstance?
Tracy:That's more of cognitive behavioral therapy.
Tracy:EMDR, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, takes it a
Tracy:step further in that it's kind of helping you heal the effects of
Tracy:trauma in your body, the effects of intergenerational trauma in your body.
Tracy:If you've ever read The Body Keeps the Score, you have an
Tracy:idea of what I'm talking about.
Tracy:But the idea of EMDR is that It targets past memories that
Tracy:are very triggering for you.
Tracy:It also helps you address current triggers in your life effectively.
Tracy:And then it also helps you address how you want to respond
Tracy:to those triggers in the future.
Tracy:So it addresses the past, the trauma, the current, the triggers.
Tracy:And the future and that's something that's like, I would like to say for
Tracy:someone who's a little bit more advanced and seasoned in therapy, like the EMDR
Tracy:is really for somebody who has been, they've been in therapy for a while.
Tracy:It's not their first rodeo.
Tracy:They've done, they've done the work of already kind of
Tracy:questioning a lot of narratives.
Tracy:So that's really who EMDR is for.
Dal:It's a lot deeper and it's something you should definitely work with, with
Dal:a qualified practitioner as opposed to trying to figure it out yourself.
Tracy:Yeah, right.
Tracy:So I'm an EMDR clinician in training.
Tracy:I'm not certified yet.
Tracy:I am about to be certified, but.
Tracy:This is really not something that I can advise over, but there's also like
Tracy:certain self regulation techniques and one self regulation technique
Tracy:I've learned in my EMDR training that I can share if, if you don't mind.
Tracy:Mm, please.
Tracy:Is called the Lightstream Technique.
Tracy:I've actually shared this on, I believe, my TikTok and my Instagram
Tracy:about the Lightstream Technique.
Tracy:And you just picture your anxiety.
Tracy:Just give it a name.
Tracy:Give it a color.
Tracy:Give it a shape.
Tracy:Give it a texture.
Tracy:Give it a size.
Tracy:Give it a weight, give it a temperature, and once you have it in mind, recognize
Tracy:where you feel it in your body, and now take your favorite color light, and
Tracy:imagine that it's kind of just shining down on your body where that anxiety is.
Tracy:And just notice how the anxiety changes shape, changes color,
Tracy:changes texture, changes temperature.
Tracy:If it changes a color, what's the color?
Tracy:If it changes the shape, what's the shape now?
Tracy:If it changes the size of your anxiety, what's the size now?
Tracy:If it changes the temperature from hot.
Tracy:What temperature is it now, just take a moment to picture that
Tracy:and let it sink into you and just notice how you feel and be with your
Tracy:experience for just a little bit.
Dal:And I guess when you're in that, that's a fascinating exercise
Dal:to be able to do, because you're getting more connected, right?
Dal:And the more that you get connected and practice these exercises, the
Dal:more these emotions will come to the fore a lot quicker, because
Dal:you're more connected to self.
Dal:I guess when you're doing that exercise, all sorts of things
Dal:will probably come up, won't they?
Dal:If you're completely out in a, almost getting into a meditative state where
Dal:you are just alone with that feeling, that sensation, that sense, that smell.
Dal:And when you're in that place, should you just allow whatever thoughts come up?
Dal:Just to flow.
Dal:Should you be writing them down?
Dal:You're sitting in those sensations.
Dal:You become familiar with it.
Dal:And then obviously you have your little eureka moment because you recognize
Dal:actually this is what I'm feeling.
Dal:So how would, I guess the word on it is processing.
Dal:How would then you, you go on to them, process it in the best way, healthy way.
Tracy:The goal of that activity, by the way, is just to kind of notice
Tracy:how when you picture your anxiety changing shape and changing temperature
Tracy:and color, that you notice that it kind of actually just goes away.
Tracy:And the first step in being able to process that is just being
Tracy:able to be a neutral observer.
Tracy:Don't put any, you know, good or bad label on that experience,
Tracy:but just notice what changed.
Tracy:Consider it like an experiment.
Tracy:If you were neutrally observing an experiment, right, what
Tracy:would be your observations?
Tracy:Oh yeah, I noticed that, like, the anxiety Oh yeah, I noticed that when I
Tracy:noticed my anxiety ball changing from red, blue, and from hot to cold, it
Tracy:kind of just went away from my stomach.
Tracy:Just notice that.
Tracy:Don't put any value on it.
Tracy:Just be with it.
Tracy:Just be patient.
Tracy:Take, take it slow.
Tracy:And these are techniques that we use in EMDR to kind of help you
Tracy:prepare for processing trauma.
Tracy:And, you know, that's obviously not something that I can do
Tracy:over, over this, but it's, it's something that we do offer in EMDR.
Tracy:These grounding techniques, these some might even call it mind body
Tracy:somatic techniques to, to help you.
Tracy:Know how to cope in, in these situations when in an EMDR,
Tracy:when you do reprocess trauma.
Dal:Understood.
Dal:And there's me, there's, there's the analytical in me trying to get to the
Dal:solution, but you're absolutely right.
Dal:The, the, the best method actually is like you say, to ground yourself and
Dal:be with the emotion rather than trying to do anything specifically with it.
Tracy:I do think that sometimes what happens is that we are so used
Tracy:to suppressing how we feel because anxiety, bad, can't feel that.
Tracy:We shouldn't feel that.
Tracy:Especially if you are perfect Indian girl, quote unquote, you are so used
Tracy:to using your anxiety to be the best at everything, to do the best at everything.
Tracy:And when you feel the anxiety, you kind of teach yourself to
Tracy:push it through, shove it down.
Tracy:And.
Tracy:push past it and do a really good job.
Tracy:And I'm asking for your, you know, perfect Indian girls to kind
Tracy:of take a moment to just feel.
Tracy:Just feel.
Tracy:Don't push it down.
Tracy:Don't shove it down.
Tracy:Just feel it.
Dal:When we get to a place where we're acknowledging our thoughts and emotions,
Dal:it becomes so much easier, doesn't it?
Dal:Because your brain goes, Oh, I recognize this.
Dal:And actually it's a safe place.
Dal:And that's okay.
Dal:Let's feel that emotion.
Dal:And then you start to ground and then you can kind of Move on.
Dal:Right.
Dal:But you start to program your reprogram yourself to accepting emotions and
Dal:being in them without any judgment or any fear or anything like that.
Dal:So that's definitely a process.
Dal:I've and I loved hearing it from you the way you articulated it.
Dal:But certainly the last 20 years is just getting a bit more familiar with.
Dal:Those emotions, not being afraid of them.
Dal:And then they pass, especially with people who have panic attacks, right?
Dal:Because panic attacks just they just evolve because once you get that
Dal:feeling of panic, you think, Oh my God, something traumatic is going to happen.
Dal:Right?
Dal:So all the adrenaline is rushing in the cortisol and then it just perpetuates.
Dal:Whereas I just use a simple technique.
Dal:Where I said, a saber tooth tiger isn't chasing you.
Dal:You're just, you know, sitting here and nothing's going to happen.
Dal:And it's so.
Dal:So crazy, but actually this is the power of the mind, that the more that I did
Dal:that, the less panic attacks happened because nothing was going to happen.
Dal:There was nothing to be afraid of.
Dal:So, I absolutely love that, and I love the techniques that you talked
Dal:about with CBT, and I think, you know, that's an exercise, you know, people
Dal:can do themselves is to get a bit more with, I suppose, questioning some of
Dal:the thoughts and beliefs they have, like you said, you know, Is it true?
Dal:Is it kind?
Dal:Is it helpful?
Dal:Is it helpful in this circumstance?
Dal:And I think, you know, that's a really, really good method.
Dal:Are there any other kind of methods which you've found really helpful,
Dal:just as we're kind of coming to a close, that you'd like to share?
Tracy:you know, I I don't know if it's so much of a method as it is
Tracy:maybe just a takeaway as, you know, a therapist and what I have to say, but
Tracy:just understanding that giving yourself goalposts and deadlines for when
Tracy:you're supposed to have something done.
Tracy:And be this perfect, fully healed person.
Tracy:That never works, right?
Tracy:Telling yourself, once I get to this point, I'll be happy.
Tracy:Or once I do this, I'll be happy.
Tracy:That never works.
Tracy:You're gonna forever be chasing happiness.
Tracy:And there's no such thing as 24 7 happiness.
Tracy:You know, the key to finding happiness is finding contentment.
Tracy:Are you satisfied with the things that you have in life?
Tracy:Not are you happy with the things you have in life.
Tracy:24 7 happiness, it's never realistic.
Tracy:It's never, it's never realistic.
Tracy:Anything worth having is going to be stressful, right?
Tracy:Relationships, marriage, parents, kids, those things are
Tracy:always going to be stressful.
Tracy:Career degree.
Tracy:Those things are going to be s they're, they're gonna be stressful, right?
Tracy:But you have to ask yourself if that stress is worth it to you in the long run.
Tracy:Sometimes the benefits of being in a relationship and being married outweigh
Tracy:the stress that that comes with that.
Tracy:Sometimes it doesn't and that's okay.
Tracy:Everyone's situation is different and comparing your goal post to
Tracy:some other perfect Indian girl that you know from your community or
Tracy:your neighborhood, it's not going to be the secret to your happiness.
Dal:You know what, you actually preempted, you've read my mind, because
Dal:one of the quickfire questions that we do on these podcasts is to say,
Dal:you know, what's the key to happiness?
Dal:And I love the way you summarize that.
Dal:And I love the point you said about, you know, getting rid of goalposts,
Dal:because they can often stand in our way.
Dal:And even as a Happiologist, people think that, you know, what I'm
Dal:sharing with people is around how you can be happy all the time.
Dal:Absolutely not.
Dal:I completely agree with you, it is not practical or actually good for you to
Dal:be happy all the time because if you don't have bad times, you know, you
Dal:can't celebrate the good times, you know, amongst other things, but, you
Dal:know, it isn't possible to have 24 seven happiness, but it's about being able to
Dal:understand how you can get to a place where there's no judgment on you and you
Dal:get yourself to a place where you feel more contented, I think is, is probably
Dal:the word that I think we both agree on.
Dal:And the only other question I was going to ask you was and this is
Dal:what I normally ask our guests is if you knew then what you do now, what
Dal:would you tell your 20 year old self?
Dal:So what advice would you give yourself with all your vast experience and wisdom?
Tracy:You know, that's actually the year that I decided not to do the
Tracy:career track that my parents wanted me to do and to pursue an entirely
Tracy:different career track instead without telling them and I was freaking out.
Tracy:I was like, Oh my God, I'm never going to be able to make this work.
Tracy:And I just, you know, I was so stressed about like little things
Tracy:that no longer truly no longer matter.
Tracy:I got where I am today.
Tracy:And I, if I could go back to my 20 year old self, I'd probably tell her, you
Tracy:know, Do not sweat the small stuff.
Tracy:This will pass.
Tracy:Like feel the stress now, but know that the stress will come to an end.
Tracy:Like sometimes you just got to feel your feelings and then it'll pass.
Tracy:It's okay to say like, I feel bad now and I know it's going
Tracy:to be over at some point.
Tracy:I just got to feel what I feel, but ultimately just
Tracy:don't sweat the small stuff.
Tracy:Just, I wish I could just like go back and just enjoy what I had then.
Tracy:Cause I had so much time that I didn't even realize I had.
Tracy:And.
Tracy:You know, life is never going to stop being stressful.
Tracy:It's just going to get more and more stressful, but it doesn't
Tracy:mean that you can't handle it.
Tracy:So make sure that you're fitting in time to just enjoy where you are and appreciate
Tracy:where you are and take care of yourself because you're going to get there.
Tracy:You will get there.
Tracy:You just got to give yourself time.
Dal:And take the pressure, pressure off, right?
Dal:And you know, there's nothing.
Dal:I've certainly learnt, you know, with age that being in the present moment and
Dal:just savouring even the smallest things, like it's so random, but I was having a
Dal:really nice cup of coffee earlier and I wasn't stressed by phone calls and things
Dal:like that after five minutes and I was thinking this is actually a really nice
Dal:cup of coffee and I'm having a moment where I'm just so chilled and I think
Dal:experiencing little moments and like you say, not always chasing or chasing
Dal:after the next thing and just, just Being present, I think is a big thing.
Dal:Listen, you've always got such great insights.
Dal:I absolutely adore you.
Dal:Where can our listeners find you?
Tracy:You can find me at the Bad Indian Therapist.
Tracy:So literally the bad Indian therapist on Instagram, Tik Tock and on Threads.
Tracy:You can also find me at the Bad Indian Therapist.
Tracy:com and thank you Dal so much.
Dal:That's okay.
Dal:There's loads on your social.
Dal:I would, yeah, really encourage people to get onto the Bad Indian Therapist.
Dal:There's just loads of great content on there.
Dal:But, no, listen, Tracy, thank you.
Dal:What an insightful discussion.
Dal:There's loads of great practical tips for us to work through here.
Dal:And the key takeaway, I've certainly taken those loads, is to allow
Dal:yourself to be and just give your self permission to feel what you feel.
Dal:I love that.
Dal:You know, good brown girl, doesn't matter.
Dal:Don't let society decide what or who you are.
Dal:Just be authentic, wonderful you.
Dal:And like you said, you'll thank you for it in the end.
Dal:Huge, huge thank you so much for joining today and I wish
Dal:everyone lots of love and light.
Dal:Thanks a lot.
Dal:Take care.
Dal:Thanks for tuning in lovely listeners.
Dal:Any questions or thoughts, drop me an email at DaltheHappiologist.
Dal:com and follow me on my social media, the Happiologist, to stay connected
Dal:for regular empowering insights to supercharge your journey to purpose.
